Save this article to read it later.
Find this story in your accountsSaved for Latersection.
Hosted by Zwirners son,Lucas Zwirner, the conversation is an estimable pairing of controversialists.
Wolfson is a Zwirner-signed artist most famous for his lurid animatronicsculptures.
At the Whitneys 2017 biennial, his virtual-reality filmReal Violencegave viewers an immersive taste of homicidal street rage.
Some excerpts:
Porn is a portal…to the world?
Jeremy O.Harris:I love watching porn for just like whats happening in the world.
Like, what are people into?
I love looking at the most popular videos in different regions.
Going to Pornhub in Berlin compared to going to Pornhub in London is so radical.
Pornhub in Berlin is a lot more violent, just naturally and casually violent.
Harris:Yes, and then, they fuck them.
Wolfson:Oh, we dont have that.
We dont have that with girls.
We dont beat them up.
Harris:You dont know what youre missing.
Representation: the ultimatebio-hack
Wolfson:The gallery is a stage that the viewer gets to walk on to.
And I thought about that when I was inDaddy.
Here is this contrived event, completely contrived, fabricated event.
Theres a pool and a house, and we all believe it.
Were all in it.
I said, Isnt that fabulous?
I think thats an amazing part of the human experience, this idea of representation.
How we are hacked by representation is really compelling.
Harris:Its wild.
I had this thing, where I was like, Representation doesnt matter.
I hated people telling me that I had to like something just because there were black people in it.
I feel more represented than I am loved in a weird way.
I am Tilda Swinton eating the prawn.
But then, I saw the Spider-Man movie, and I was literally hacked by that movie.
[Laughs] And I was like, representation does matter!
I didnt even want to admit it at the time.
There is a scene with Jamie Lee Curtis, who plays a prostitute.
Theres this part where she changes in front of Dan Aykroyd.
She gets naked and changes in front of him.
Louis Garrel in that movie was the sexiest thing to me.
Theres a scene where theyre talking about Maoism at [Jean-Luc Godards]La Chinoise.
Theres a huge Mao poster and Louis Garrel and Michael Pitt are in these silk house robes.
I would rewind that over and over and over again.
And Im like, God damn it.
Why did she come in and ruin that?
It was back when I was 19 or 20.
Wed hang out at the house of this 65-year-old guy named Joe Smith.
Wed go there and smoke pot in his loft on 20th street.
Everything was maroon and all the windows were covered.
Thered be all of these young gay dudes messing around with Joe.
He was really cool and once he lent me money to buy a video camera.
One night me and Mike Pitt had to take care of him.
So, I had this super-awkward night eating sushi with Mike Pitt over there.
I remember stuffing money into this dying mans pocket.
Im like, Joe, Im paying you back for this camera.
And Im always like, I dont know.
Wolfson:I am a little actually gay.
Harris:What is a little actually gay?
Because everyones queer for clout now.
Wolfson:I wouldnt say its queer for clout.
I have hooked up with guys.
I have five good guys.
But for the most part, I date women.
I really, really love women in a way that I havent had access to men at this point.
Im open but women
Harris:But gay adjacent.
Wolfson:Yeah, I would say so.
The struggles of working in an industry dominated by baby boomers:
Harris:Its fucking annoying.
They had the virtue signal.
They were like,Guys I dont know if kids can take this.Its really scary.
Im like, Were you never a teenager?
These kids are going to eat this up and then start glamorizing it.
Wolfson:Theres so much fear.
Everyone is holding onto the seat and the table at the same time.
I always felt that transgression lead to transformation.
Go to any young hero story.
In a way, were giving that to them, be it in the gallery or in the theater.
